dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 28, 2022 17:39:10 GMT
You're not dumb. You're asking a perfectly sensible questions. The thing is that we are already playing from behind losing buck on D1 so we'll eventually have to take some risks and hope for the best.
Ah, so you feel that this game wouldn't have a straight out tracker?
Lift's other game which had Motion Detector didn't have the proper roles it spoofs so I'd say there is a good chance they don't have that. They could still have a Cop or role Cop or some other annoyance like this that will likely straight up bust you but we don't have a way to play around that other than hoping we kill it.
I'm sorry for being so dumb about this, but a tracker could follow you, and a detective would stay where you are and see if someone (including yourself) comes/goes/does something?
A Tracker sees who his target visited during the Night.
Example: Tracker ZFR tracks Dedo. Dedo kills HSL. ZFR gets a result "Dedo visted HSL". HSL flips dead in the Morning. ZFR says "I saw Dedo visit HSL. Smoke 'em!!!!". Dedo gets yeeted.
Your protection on me would prevent that.
A Watcher sees who visited his target.
Example: Watcher ZFR watches HSL. Dedo kills JSL. ZFR gets a result "You saw no one visiting HSL". HSL flips dead in the Morning. ZFR says "WTF!". Dedo giggles in a dastardly way around the corner.
I don't think I can claim to be "protecting" anyone, as I straight out said my role doesn't seem to work well (they suspect a strongman), but then RWH also asked straight out about whether my role stops NKs, and I gave an answer that suggests it doesn't.
The wiki claims you CAN prevent Night kills as they are technically Night actions unless the kill is performed by a Strongman which trumps it. You wrote "Nightkills are not specifically mentioned, just powers." so you can say misunderstood "Night actions" (which is what the role stops) for "Night powers". You already mixed up the role name so it won't be that surprising to mix up other terms that are pretty similar to an unexperienced player. Besides all of that your whole play is already based on the fact that you believed you'd be saving Frostburn. You may have to explain yourself anyway.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 28, 2022 17:42:09 GMT
Also, you probably have more experience with this than me (if a similar setup occurred before), but if you NK someone who happens to be Guybrush, and I take credit for saving them, would flavour text and descriptions of the event not straight up contradict that? Usually the protected target doesn't learn they were protected. The protector also doesn't normally get a direct confirmation that their protection was what prevented the kill. For everyone else during the following day there will be no information. The day will just start and people will get excited about no one dying during the Night and try to figure out what that means.
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Post by babark on Jun 28, 2022 17:45:54 GMT
To list it out (mostly) for my own benefit:
My possible functions: - Protect people from investigating you as you do a NK - Protect you from being seen/stopped by your target as you do a NK - Do the NK myself if we suspect someone of being Guybrush
My perceived town role: - Stop any "power" from being used on someone (including good or bad): This doesn't really protect them from being NKed (and might even expose them), so I dunno what I can claim I was doing and to whom
Does my post 713 ("Nightkills not mentioned, just powers" and "I think I did something really dumb" make me unable to back out of the claim of not being able to stop a NK? Did the Harry Potter game's (did you participate in it?) rolestopper stop NKs?
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 28, 2022 18:22:11 GMT
My perceived town role: - Stop any "power" from being used on someone (including good or bad): This doesn't really protect them from being NKed (and might even expose them), so I dunno what I can claim I was doing and to whom If it's "power" specifically - yes. But if it's "action" then it's also a protection from a normal night kill. To be honest I don't know. It could be quite problematic since at the start of the Day your posts were suggesting you expected to prevent a kill. Then suddenly you say your PM only said "powers" and you may have messed up. There is an inconsistency there that some people (and we do have people like that in the roster) would look into during the Night and ask you about Tomorrow. I'm not sure what is better - it's possible you just now, during your claim and after people questioned it, you realized that you don't really protect in which case you sort of lose utility for the Town and you can no longer claim me failing to kill Guybrush was your doing (it could still be mine, though). Or you can say you got confused by all the people asking you questions at deadline one over the other and you got confused. This may work, may backfire, I can't say for certain. I say just state that at the beginning you assumed the night kill was also a power and you thought you were going to help. OK, I went back and checked. You said: I am certain I understood how the role is meant to work.
Nightkills are not specifically mentioned, just powers. If your implication is true, I get the feeling now that I did a really really dumb thing on N1...
I think you can turn that around saying that your initial understanding was that you're stopping any powers targeting your target and you thought the kill was a power so you thought you were helping. RW's question about NK being specifically mentioned made you unsure about your own understanding of the role. After Today ended you asked Lift on PM if the night kill is considered a power in the context of your role and he confirmed it. This may work. You'll still get heat after a Day or 2 if you keep surviving but we'll worry about that when and if the time comes.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 28, 2022 18:23:55 GMT
Oh, one more thing. Last Night when I was killing Frostburn I got message from the mod that my kill felt not as powerful but still went through. I assume this was my strongman power overcoming your protection but still something to keep in mind.
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Post by babark on Jun 28, 2022 18:29:31 GMT
Oh, one more thing. Last Night when I was killing Frostburn I got message from the mod that my kill felt not as powerful but still went through. I assume this was my strongman power overcoming your protection but still something to keep in mind. I don't think so. Lift realised that my power might cancel out your (strongman) power after I asked him about it after I got my result from the night action. So since it obviously wasn't Guybrush you killed, I'm guessing we DO have some sort of guardian role, and you overpowered it.
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Post by babark on Jun 28, 2022 18:30:57 GMT
As to the other topic, I guess I can say that (assuming I was going to be NK), I figured I might as well make myself useful and target someone who wasn't obvious NK material, in case there was some mafia power that could be used to kill them.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 28, 2022 19:43:49 GMT
Oh, one more thing. Last Night when I was killing Frostburn I got message from the mod that my kill felt not as powerful but still went through. I assume this was my strongman power overcoming your protection but still something to keep in mind. I don't think so. Lift realised that my power might cancel out your (strongman) power after I asked him about it after I got my result from the night action. So since it obviously wasn't Guybrush you killed, I'm guessing we DO have some sort of guardian role, and you overpowered it. Wait, what? The wiki specifically says that the Rolestopper doesn't prevent Strongman kills. I was under the impression that was an intended combo between our roles. @lift, can you confirm that my Strongman ability will go through babark's rolestopping if he were to use it on my target?
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Post by The GOGFather on Jun 28, 2022 21:03:57 GMT
babark's power will not prevent your kill, as you have noticed.
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 28, 2022 21:28:46 GMT
Thanks, just wanted to make sure as his post confused me a bit.
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 1:25:57 GMT
Perhaps The GOGFather can clarify further, but what he told me was that my power doesn't stop actions (such as kills), only powers. So your "power" of strongman would be cancelled out due to my power, but I'd be cancelling out anything else that might be stopping you as well, so that little detail is irrelevant, and the actual kill would not be stopped.
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 1:38:54 GMT
But my actual point was that he was musing about this for the first time while discussing it with me, so when he mentioined to you that your kill met resistance or whatever, it was relating to some other role of some other person.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 7:31:02 GMT
Perhaps The GOGFather can clarify further, but what he told me was that my power doesn't stop actions (such as kills), only powers. So your "power" of strongman would be cancelled out due to my power, but I'd be cancelling out anything else that might be stopping you as well, so that little detail is irrelevant, and the actual kill would not be stopped. Oh, so you're saying your role really won't be preventing any kills at all, not just mine? I get it now. That may be a problem then. If you do say you have asked Lift about it and he replied that yes, powers do include the normal night kills someone else may decide to reiterate the question in the game thread in which case Lift will respond truthfully which would cause a conflict. So maybe the other way around is the safest: You thought your role blocks everything including kills at the beginning of the game. You targeted Frostburn thinking you're protecting him. The questioning at the end of D2 made you realize you may have misunderstood how your role works and you PMed Lift to ask if your role stops kills to which he responded it doesn't. Now you know for a fact you're not a replacement for a Doctor. As I said earlier that takes away a bit of your utility for the Town which makes you less valuable and more sacrifice-able in case they want to Policy Lynch you which is not ideal. As a matter of fact even the wiki page says this version of the Role that doesn't block kills is more useful for scum rather than Town. Technically it may have been your fault that Frosburn died as you could have prevented the real Doctor from protecting him. That same coin has another side though - the fact that you don't claim the greater power may put you away from a real protector's counter-claim and will also make people wonder why would scum claim a weaker/less useful role. It may make it more believable for some of the players. For this to work I believe you have to say you looked at that wiki page (https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Rolestopper) at the start of the game and you just assumed you prevent kills as the role would normally work. Your real version is only mentioned at the very end but you didn't even consider that because you're not scum :) I strongly recommend you revisit your own posts in the game and see exactly what things you said and what phrases you used along the way so you don't entangle yourself in your own lies Tomorrow. The longer you remain in the game the better shot we have at turning things around.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 7:42:18 GMT
@lift, sorry for annoying you with this but I just want to make sure there are no misunderstandings. Babark has the Rolestopper variant which won't block ANY kills, correct? He wouldn't have stopped buck's normal kill, nor it would stop a potential Vig kill or SK kill?
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 17:29:30 GMT
To save you the time (since I guess he's not around?), yes, that is literally what he told me. I don't prevent kills, I prevent powers from being used on my target.
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 17:31:12 GMT
Also, I don't think I have any lies to get caught in. As I said initially here, it seems pretty obvious to anyone who reads my posts that I thought I could stop kills, but it turns out I can't.
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 17:31:54 GMT
...and that I realised that, and have exposed that to people
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 17:46:24 GMT
OK, in that case my I'd say the safest bet would be to roll with it and take the chance of people seeing that as a scum-oriented role. In this case the next logical question for you would be "did you use your powers on N2 and on who"? To be fair I'm not sure what the best answer to that would be. The Townier choice appears to be to sit on your power in order to not stand in the way of the Motion Detector and any other potential Town roles that may want to move around and do Townie stuff.
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 17:50:31 GMT
Let's say they have another, more useful role. The alleged real protector, whatever it might be. Do you have any idea who it might be?
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 17:52:13 GMT
We should discuss the specifics of our plan for D3. You will NK HSL, sure, but will (1) I target you, or (2) him, or (3) some third person/no one to throw off the scent? 1 - I still don't think anyone is suspicious specifically of you, so I'm not sure anyone would be watching you, and if they are, as you said, you can claim commuter. I'm also not sure if Guybrush's soul being a counter to your strongman is a power, in which case, if I target you, I would nullify that power. Maybe The GOGFather can chime in on that as well? 2 - I don't believe anyone would feel HSL is in danger, but you know better than me, do you think they do? Implications if they do are: * Someone will protect HSL, and you will strongman that protection and make it irrelevant * Someone will motion detect HSL, and see some motion occurring (and not be able to do anything about it or know who it was) * Someone has a watcher role, and will actually see that it was you visiting HSL, and you're goose is cooked (according to you, low likelihood, but I could solve this by targetting HSL) * HSL is Guybrush, and you are unable to kill him. I don't know if this means he will know you tried attacking him or not, or that someone tried attacking him, or that it was his own Guybrush soul that saved him and whether he knows the function of his soul. Me targetting him and then claiming credit for saving him could then backfire potentially on both me and you 3 - I could target some 3rd completely irrelevant person or do nothing, and you kill HSL (with the hope that no one more powerful than a motion detector is watching him) Following whichever choice I make is the trouble of explaining my actions the next day. I've basically admitted to being useless. The most I can think of is saying I fully expected to be NKed, so I chose some person I personally believed to be town, and hoped I could protect him from some mafia role or power kill of some sort (not sure how this would hold water, because I've clearly stated that I can stop powers, but not NKs, so mafia would be stupid to do some sort of power NK). Or I sat at home and did nothing. I'm not sure I see a way out of me being a pretty strong candidate for lynching on D3.
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Post by babark on Jun 29, 2022 17:55:17 GMT
No idea who the real protector would be. Probably not RW, but does it matter? You aren't affected by them.
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 18:20:18 GMT
I'll address these in separate posts for better readability. 1 - I still don't think anyone is suspicious specifically of you, so I'm not sure anyone would be watching you, and if they are, as you said, you can claim commuter. I'm also not sure if Guybrush's soul being a counter to your strongman is a power, in which case, if I target you, I would nullify that power. Maybe The GOGFather can chime in on that as well? I think the only people that might target me with some investigation are Joe and maybe Dessimu. And I'd say Dessimu is a lot more interested in others before he feels the need to go after me. So probably just Joe. The rest seem to be mostly content with me or distracted by other things. Would Joe really go after me if he has investigative power? Very likely. I've actually lost a game in this exact way. I was a Sniper and Joe saw me killing Lift. That along with a few well-connected Town PRs won them the game. The question is whether Joe has a power. I'm willing to take a risk and say we don't worry about that right now. I can't claim Commuter effectively without you actively shielding me from any potential investigations. If someone sees me it's their word against mine which gives me 1 additional Day at most. I don't think your power would beat Guybrush's soul. Your ability stops powers targeting your target as in active powers. Guybrush being Guybrush would count as passive and not a power. His spirit would likely carry some other power and that is what you would be able to stop.
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 18:36:25 GMT
2 - I don't believe anyone would feel HSL is in danger, but you know better than me, do you think they do? Implications if they do are: * Someone will protect HSL, and you will strongman that protection and make it irrelevant * Someone will motion detect HSL, and see some motion occurring (and not be able to do anything about it or know who it was) * Someone has a watcher role, and will actually see that it was you visiting HSL, and you're goose is cooked (according to you, low likelihood, but I could solve this by targetting HSL) * HSL is Guybrush, and you are unable to kill him. I don't know if this means he will know you tried attacking him or not, or that someone tried attacking him, or that it was his own Guybrush soul that saved him and whether he knows the function of his soul. Me targetting him and then claiming credit for saving him could then backfire potentially on both me and you I'm pretty sure a lot of people would feel HSL is in danger as he is Town-core for pretty much everyone in the game. If I were Town right now and a Doctor I would have most likely protecting him Tonight. * Simple protection on its own is not a problem for me, yes. * Motion Detecting HSL is also not a problem. He obviously got killed so the killer tripped the Motion Detector. * Motion Detecting me without your protection is a problem as RW wakes up knowing 3 things - Something moved around Dedo, HSL died, Dedo didn't. This means Dedo killed HSL or Dedo has a role that has to make sense later on (Commuter won't make sense as he wouldn't have seen me) or yet another role targeted Dedo and that role has to come out and say it eventually. All in all this is a recipe for an eventual disaster. Especially if we start mass-claiming. Then I'm dead in the water. * If a real Watcher targets HSL I'm dead. Although I'm not sure how the Rolestopper role would work in this case but for balancing reasons I think I'd be seen unless you're targeting HSL. * HSL being Guybrush would be the toughest titty in the world as it would mean we have wasted a free NK and unless you survive at least one more Day to take care of him he'll be effectively immortal until the end of the game and will have to remain as the last Townie beatable only by getting even numbers with them. Dauting task for sure.
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 18:37:53 GMT
3 - I could target some 3rd completely irrelevant person or do nothing, and you kill HSL (with the hope that no one more powerful than a motion detector is watching him) I don't think there is a world where this is a good idea. We have to make the best out of your power, everything else is just a waste. In my opinion the only two reasonable targets for you are the person I'm killing or myself.
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dedop
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What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 18:38:42 GMT
I need to step away for 1-2 hours and will be back. Let me know your thoughts on what I wrote.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 20:18:55 GMT
One more thing to consider - if someone expects to see something and they don't you're likely going to be the first reason they think of regardless of what you claim so it's also important to always be as truthful as possible, if it can be done.
For example assume razza is a PR. She claims it and says on N1 she visited Frostburn and on N2 she visited Dessimu. RW also decided to re-visit razza on N2 and so did babark. Babark blocked RW's investigation on razza and he [RW] didn't see any motion where he expected to based on his N1 detected motion and razza's claim. RW now knows razza's claim conflicts with his own information. Normally the first thing he is likely to assume is that razza is lying as she says she did something that RW didn't detect. Unfortunately for us RW knows that there is a claimed Rolestopper role which could create this conflict. If babark says he didn't target razza RW is 99% certain at least one of razza and babark is lying.
Does that make sense?
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 29, 2022 21:05:50 GMT
And one more - even though you managed to claim your way out of D2 your general level of participation is still lacking overall. I'd say at this point it's not a terrible idea keeping at it - a sudden shift in behavior may actually backfire. That being said I may still have to give you hard time and potentially keep bussing you for the sake of distancing and getting Town points in whomever of us ends up the last scum alive. I hope we manage to stir up enough chaos so we can win at 2:2 but we still have a very long way to go so we have to prepare as much as we can.
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Post by babark on Jun 30, 2022 1:40:42 GMT
It seems you're leaning towards option 2 (but you are worried about RW, but you said he wouldn't have any reason to be watching you?).
I'll probably have to assume I will be watched, though, and will have to explain myself, which is a bit difficult, I need to figure out a reason I would be doing anything, considering my power doesn't seem effective against mafia, and appears it could get in the way of town.
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dedop
Quicktopic Mourner
What we have here is a failure to communicate!
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Post by dedop on Jun 30, 2022 8:07:32 GMT
That's the problem with RW - his role's usage isn't necessarily limited to suspects - he may also just want to gather more data for people in general and try to confirm potential allies.
To be honest I'm not sure what gives us better chances. Maybe you can sit on your power Tonight and we hope no one picks me up moving about. That way if RW targets you he can say you did nothing which would give you Town points and if both of us survive D3 we can consider taking care of him. If we're extremely lucky he may be taken care for us during D3.
In theory this could work very well as people may give you enough credit to leave you alone for a bit longer. Unfortunately it can be waste of your power on N2 as someone may still decide to push for you as a policy lynch like we did with buck - your role isn't really all that helpful to the Town, as a matter of fact can be an obstacle and you haven't been extremely engaged with helping the Town so far, either. On paper you aren't the worst of lynches and you may still end up on the menu on D3, possibly even right out of the gate.
So I really can't say which is better.
Screw it, let's try to give you a bit more breathing room. You sit pretty Tonight and I'll just Leeroy Jenkins HSL. It the see me, they see me. I'll figure something out on the go. During the Day, whatever you do, the most important thing for you is to be consistent with the things you did and said previously even if they aren't automatically in Town's best interest. As long as you're consistent and you don't make inexplicable shifts in behavior and reads you may still be seen as a Townie who isn't terribly invested rather than scum.
Since we're running out of time I'll just set tentative actions so we don't miss our window but feel free to change them however you see fit in case we don't get to talk in real-time before Lift wraps the Night up.
babark does nothing
Dedo strongman kills HSL
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Post by babark on Jun 30, 2022 9:39:31 GMT
I don't have much to be inconsistent, no worries. I don't have a lot to track about what I said before. A pity I boxed myself in with the "I can only stop powers, not roles" statement.
You're right, I'd be a pretty good candidate for lynching on D3 unless someone else does something stupid.
So for D3 for now, I guess my story is "Oh wow, I'm not NK, I must be totally useless" and if probing occurs, "Yeah, I didn't do anything because I'd get in the way". Here's hoping for a powerful role gone with HSL. If we catch a guardian equivalent, I could probably be attacking people as well.
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